An Oklahoma Law That Would Prohibit All Abortion

Updated:
Posted in: Reproductive Law

Last month, on May 20, the governor of Oklahoma, Mary Fallin, vetoed an abortion restriction passed by both houses of the Oklahoma legislature. Though generally a supporter of anti-abortion legislation, the governor balked because of the scope of the particular law. The law in question would have criminalized the performance of all abortions, for which felony liability would attach to the performing physician, who could serve up to three years in prison. The law would also have revoked the license of any physician who performed an abortion (except for one necessary to save the life of the mother, an exception that—interestingly—did not appear to make its way into the felony provision). In this column, I will examine what distinguishes such a law, reportedly the first of its kind, from the more common abortion restrictions that have become popular of late. I will suggest that this law more authentically reflects the pro-life perspective on abortion, however unpalatable to the general public, and that it is even defensible if one truly enters the mindset of one who believes that a fully entitled “life” has come into existence at conception.

The More Common Abortion Restrictions

While the Oklahoma bill in question departs significantly from the norm, states have been quite regularly passing more modest laws that do (and are almost certainly meant to) interfere with a woman’s right to exercise her reproductive choice to terminate a pregnancy. Quite a few states, including—most recently—South Carolina, have enacted bans on abortions that take place after 20 weeks’ gestation. Most notably, Texas has in place a law—currently under challenge in the U.S. Supreme Court—that requires doctors who perform abortions to have admitting privileges at a local hospital and requires abortion clinics to be equipped as ambulatory surgical centers. Though all of these laws are disruptive of the right to abortion, none is as “bold” as the Oklahoma law.

Why would abortion opponents pass laws that permit abortion but simply place obstacles in the path of those who seek to obtain them? One answer is that the U.S. Supreme Court has held that women have a constitutional right to terminate a pregnancy up until the point of viability (and, to preserve her life or health, even after viability). Restrictions that plainly violate this constitutional right are likely to be successfully challenged in court and thus to cost their defenders money and time for no immediate gain. Less blatantly unconstitutional restrictions, by contrast, have a chance of surviving judicial scrutiny and will then provide a gain from the perspective of pro-life individuals: it will reduce the number of abortions by impeding access to the procedure.

The Problem of Compromise

The one downside of less extreme abortion restrictions, from the pro-life point of view, is that they potentially compromise and thereby betray the principles that drive the people who press for them. The principle that drives the core of the pro-life community is that life begins at conception and any procedure that terminates the life of even a zygote is tantamount to murder. For people who hold this view, there is something objectionable about pressing for laws that implicitly reject this framing of abortion.

Take the 20-week ban as an illustration. Banning abortion at 20 weeks necessarily implies that there is something about a 20-week fetus that morally distinguishes her (or him or it) from a 19-week fetus or, more importantly, from a 1-day-old zygote, such that killing the latter remains legal while killing the former becomes subject to a ban. Not only is this idea foreign to the core values of the pro-life movement; it actually mirrors the views of the movement’s opponents by adopting a framework in which the older a fetus gets, the more like a “person” it is and therefore the more morally problematic its killing is. The logical extension of this view is that killing a newborn baby is worse than terminating a pregnancy and that this is why abortion is, by and large, not treated as murder, despite the pro-life position on the matter.

An Uncompromising Ban

By contrast to 20-week bans or “pain capable abortion” laws, which imply a hierarchy in which a zygote is necessarily something “less than” a later fetus, the Oklahoma felony provision would have treated all abortions equally, regardless of when in pregnancy they took place. Any abortion, under the law, would subject the doctor to felony liability, even an abortion undertaken to save the life of the mother (though the latter would apparently not subject the doctor to license revocation, only to prison time). The meaning of such a law is that a fully-entitled human being has begun to exist at the moment of conception, and that human being’s deliberate destruction is no less eligible for criminal prosecution than a much later-term fetus’s destruction.

Mainstream views tend to regard later abortions as worse than earlier ones, perhaps in part because very late abortions can inflict harm on a fetus who is already capable of feeling pain (and is accordingly sentient). When pro-life advocates propose legislation that bans “pain-capable abortions” or other late-term procedures, they are thereby appealing to the mainstream view that a zygote’s moral worth is far less than that of a late-term fetus that is capable of experiencing the world around him or her. By catering to the mainstream, though it does have the “beneficial” effect of impeding access to abortion, advocates may feel uncomfortable about betraying their core principles.

The Oklahoma bill, then, is ideal for those who have a clear and unequivocal position on abortion that says that a zygote is no less a fully entitled moral being than a newborn baby is. Not only do they hold that position, one that they might share with people willing to compromise to gain support and survive constitutional scrutiny, but they propose legislation that fully embodies that position and betrays no principles in the process.

But the Life of the Mother?

Some readers may be shocked by the feature of the Oklahoma bill in which a doctor who performs an abortion to save the life of the mother may still be subject to felony liability and corresponding prison time. Does anyone really hold the view that an abortion to save the life of the mother is wrong?

The answer to that question is yes, and I will try here to explain why that position makes sense, if one truly believes that a zygote is a fully entitled moral being with a right to be and to remain where it is. Many of us think of a zygote or embryo or fetus as, at least in a sense, invading the internal physiological space of the pregnant woman. Some of us may still oppose most abortions, on the theory that such invasion of the woman’s internal space is both arguably consensual (assuming that intercourse was consensual) and less significant than the alternate harm of killing the zygote, embryo, or fetus. But when the fetus threatens the life of the mother, then the internal invasion narrative of pregnancy leads us to say “remove the fetus” (even at the cost of killing it) and thereby avoid allowing the fetus to kill the mother. Those who view the zygote, embryo, or fetus as an internal “occupier” of the woman therefore regard a threat to the mother’s life as akin to a self-defense situation, in which the woman has the right to defend her life from what is essentially an attack on it by her own fetus.

But consider a different way of thinking about the zygote living inside the woman. Although the woman was there first, one could regard this detail as irrelevant (much as we regard a person’s being older than another person as irrelevant to the right to life). The woman and the fetus, on this alternative account, are both occupying the same space and are both equally entitled to be doing so. The woman’s blood supply nourishes both her and her fetus, and they are both naturally dependent on the oxygen and nutrients that the woman takes into her body.

The woman and fetus are, in this scenario, like two inhabitants of a lifeboat, both of whom need to be there to survive. If suddenly, the lifeboat became able to sustain only one of its passengers, it would not follow legally (or, arguably, morally either) that either passenger would be entitled to throw the other passenger overboard to save himself or herself. As soon as we conceive of the fetus as simply a co-occupant of the same physical space as the woman, rather than as a parasite of the sort that inherently invades what is primarily the woman’s space, it becomes far less clear that the woman may kill (or do the equivalent by expelling) the fetus in order to preserve her own life.

The above narrative of a fetus’s place inside a woman’s body is not one that I find convincing. It is, however, one that I can understand, and it leads to the logical consequence that even in a case in which continuing her pregnancy threatens the woman’s very life, it may still be morally impermissible to abort. For someone who takes this position (such as the Catholic Church), a law that criminalizes the performance of all abortions, including those that would save a mother’s life, is not only comprehensible but in perfect alignment with their morality. For them, this law has the benefit of accurately and authentically reflecting what they view as the wrongfulness of abortion, a wrongfulness that has nothing to do with the timing of the procedure, the reason for the procedure, or the presence of absence of admitting privileges and/or surgical equipment at the facility where the procedure is performed.

Why Ever Compromise, Then?

One response to this defense of the Oklahoma law might be that perhaps all anti-abortion laws should look like this. Why would anyone compromise and pass legislation that falls short—often extremely short—of what an advocate truly believes? As Michael Dorf and I have discussed in detail in our book, Beating Hearts: Abortion and Animal Rights, there are strategic reasons for advocating for something that is not only less than what one truly wants but morally inconsistent with one’s true goals, as is the case for laws that prohibit abortions based on how late along in pregnancy they occur (thus implying that something short of a true “life” exists at conception).

In the case of abortion, an important strategic reason for supporting such legislation is that it can have the effect of acclimating people to abortion restrictions, which can then—without triggering as much of a backlash—pave the way to more restrictive regulations in the future. Another reason is that even though a late-term abortion ban is inconsistent with the pro-life narrative, it is also inconsistent with the feminist, pro-choice narrative: it challenges the idea that a woman should have complete sovereignty over what and who gets to live inside her body; and it also challenges the notion that prior to birth (or even to viability), there is nothing but “tissue” inside her womb. A 20-week abortion ban—to the extent that it attracts support from mainstream folks—thus helps move the dialogue away from the feminist view of abortion, and a big part of the “battle” over abortion involves combating the other side’s view, not simply promoting one’s own side’s approach.

Ultimately, there is therefore good reason for passing legislation that stands a chance of surviving judicial scrutiny, even if it does not authentically capture a proponent’s genuine view of the issue at stake. The Oklahoma statute—pure as it was—was, after all, never signed into law. And for those of us who support a woman’s right to choose an abortion, that vetoed outcome is just as well, even as we keep at the front of our minds the true objectives of our opponents, as so plainly revealed in that law.

  • Rita, Canberra

    Genuine medicine recognizes a fundamental difference between abortion, and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatment results in the loss of life of her unborn child.

    You may find interesting this statement by the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists:

    “The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention defined legal induced abortion as an “intervention performed by a licensed clinician (e.g., a physician, nurse-midwife, nurse practitioner, or physician assistant) that is intended to terminate a suspected or known ongoing intrauterine pregnancy and produce a non-viable fetus at any gestational age.”

    There is a night and day difference between selective abortion and separating a mother and her unborn child for the purposes of saving a mother’s life (preterm parturition).

    There are times when separating the mother and her unborn child is necessary to save the life of the mother, even if the unborn child is too premature to live. In those tragic cases, if possible the life of the baby will be attempted to be preserved, and if not possible, the body of the unborn child is treated with respect, recognizing the humanity of the life which is lost in the separation.

    In contrast, the purpose of an selective abortion is to produce a dead baby. That is what an abortionist is paid to do: to kill the unborn child before delivering it, or to kill the child during the delivery process, as is done with partial-birth abortion. So the focus of the selective abortion procedure is on killing the unborn child, and the purpose of the selective abortion is to produce a dead baby.”

    • Joe Paulson

      The purpose of a “selective abortion” is to end a pregnancy. The author (in the book cited and other writings) has separated some right “to produce a dead baby” (e.g., if technology allowed inserting a two week embryo in an artificial womb that the woman can say “no”) from that. The state is allowed to ban abortions once the fetus is viable though the state needs to allow it for health reasons — not just to save her life. Major organ damage, e.g., is not required to be borne.

      Why does the woman want to end a pregnancy? Or, sometimes a teenage girl? A range of reasons. The “life of the mother” reason is a matter of degree. For instance, any pregnancy subjects a woman to a series of health complications and provides a small chance of very serious complications, in a few cases maybe even death. The teen or adult woman here has the abortion — like she has a range of medical procedures that are not essential for immediate survival — for health reasons.

      Many religions accept abortion as moral in such cases while also respecting life generally; the same for general moral systems. The abortion can be done respectful of life, including not done for trivial reasons. The doctor involved — and one is involved in both your scenarios — and others can help out here. Finally, the author of the piece has argued that the personhood of the fetus occurs at sentience. This is where rights come in her eyes, both for humans and animals. But, even there, it remains the woman’s body, and we don’t have an obligation to give up our body to others. We don’t have an obligation to donate even a pint of blood to save a child.

      Anyway, again in all cases, we can say the purpose of the procedure is to end the pregnancy, including to avoid the negative health effects of pregnancy. It is in no way necessarily simply “to produce a dead baby.” The matter is moot however given current technology. It just might be some people do not want the embryo or fetus to be born at all — e.g., in serious cases of deformity. This would be a special case … again, there can be a range of cases where your division is not so.

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  • tuckerfan

    The moral distinction to allow abortion to preserve the life of the mother is not elusive, we do not demand that one person give up their life for another. We may shun those who do not as cowards, even as we laud those who do as heroes but a free society should not be able to decide who must offer their lives up to benefit another. If we get to that day we need to all pray we are not compatible donors for the rich and powerful.

    • Joe Paulson

      are you against the draft?

      • tuckerfan

        Yes, my lottery number was 2 in 1970 so I signed up, but thought it was wrong then and still do

        • Joe Paulson

          thanks … gather the same would apply if it was 1942

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            There were many more professions that were exempt from the draft during WWII.

          • Joe Paulson

            do you have something that backs that up?

            It was easier to get an conscientious objection exemption later & thinking education and other means of exemption were easier later especially given people having the resources after the Great Depression was over to pay for college etc. more. Finally, blacks and other minorities had more of a claim of injustice during WWII with segregation in place.

            The difference wasn’t that great to override the principle at the very least.

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            Yes, I do have ‘something” to back up my statement at another comment. The system does not appear to want to let my original comment post.

            Adult males on both sides of my family were exempt due to their professions during WWII – so personal knowledge. My father waited until the next son turned 14 and could get a driver’s license before he was allowed by the draft board to enlist at 20.

            Also: The December 21, 1942 Life Magazine has an article on the draft and exemptions.

            The article outlines those areas that were considered critical and that local draft boards and Selective Service officials made decisions about who would and would not be required to perform military service and who would and would not be exempt from military service.

            Furthermore, the references below will expand on what professions were exempt and why that decision was made.

            Some professions were deemed necessary for the war effort [such as essential agriculture – many farmers were thus exempt from the draft]. Some with critical ship buidling skills were exempt – so our navy would have new
            vessels and damaged vessels could be returned to combat.

            There were also exemptions for public health and safety reasons [policemen, firemen, and doctors].

            Flynn, George Q. 1993. The Draft, 1940-1973. Lawrence: University of Kansas Press

            O’Sullivan, John, and Alan M. Meckler. 1974. The Draft and Its Enemies. Urbana: University ofIllinois Press.

            Rostker, Bernard. 2006. I Want You! The Evolution of the All-Volunteer Force. anta Monica, Calif.: Rand Corporation.

          • Joe Paulson

            I appreciate the reply but the relevant point is if all those things were not available in Vietnam. Also, the other points — blacks having a more principled complaint and people with more resources to obtain education deferments in a later time of better economic times — hold. Also, conscientiousness objection rules were broader, particularly after the U.S. v. Seeger case.

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            And what “profession” was a “conscientious objector” or a “black” or a “college deferment?”

            As to your comment regarding “the relevant point.” MY comment was strictly about professions that were exempt – please do not suggest that I go down any rabbit hole that you are interested in commenting on.

          • Joe Paulson

            I made a comment about the draft generally and you responded to me with a comment about more professions being exempt. Seemed to me to be a comment about the draft as a whole somehow being more legitimate during WWII. If you were only making a minor point, okay.

        • 98C3LCMT9Y4

          And by signing up you had a choice in what speciality you would serve in – lots did it to avoid infantry.

          • tuckerfan

            That is exactly why I signed up, spent four glorious years not getting shot at as an IG aide.

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            But you had to spend 4 years with lawyers…….

          • Mike Smith

            Law school is 3 years, dummy. But again, since you never even sat for ANY graduate-level admittance examinations (e.g., LSAT, GRE, GMAT, etc.) you have ZERO credibility on this issue!

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            Thank you yet again for documenting your universal lack of reading comprehension and complete lack of critical thinking skills.

            I was not talking about “law school”, maggot boy, but about enlisting rather than being drafted so one could select their military job. Tuckerfan enlisted for 4 years and spent that time as an IG aide – neither he nor I mentioned “law school” because WE were not discussing “law school.”

            So dummy, even managed to figure out how to move to Hawai’i? After all, you bragged about doing that as soon as you ‘retired’ [left civil service AFTER that nasty Navg IG investigation found you ‘guilty” of UNETHICAL behavior] and that ‘retirement’ was years & years ago.

            Can’t afford to move and or can’t figure out how to get to Hawai’l [really, no passport is needed] and or don’t want to end up living in a tent on a beach because you really can neither afford to move nor unload your slums?

          • Mike Smith

            You are utterly delusional!

          • AFRet05

            Our favorite troll has been extremely busy on the Military Times website (look up any article talking about housing). Talk about a serious slap fest!

          • Mike Smith

            You are right in one sense, you entitlement mindsetted coward, I’ve been “slapping” around many on that site with facts and compelling argument. Why not join the fun? Your obviously visited the site and read my comments. Don’t continue to be afraid.

            And as I said on that site, continue to cry all you want. But the party that should never have been permitted to start, and the near $21 billion per year BAH tax free gravy train off the backs of the U.S. taxpayers will soon come to a screeching halt. It’s about time.

            Taken right from the report language from the pending legislation in the U.S. Senate:

            “The move stems from senators’ belief that the BAH has grown bloated and ripe for abuse. In report language connected to the authorization bill, they argued the benefit today “far exceeds the actual cost of housing borne by some service members” and needs to be brought under control.

            “BAH, and the iterations of the benefit that came before, was intended to provide a housing benefit for service members in recognition of the transient nature of military service, and in further recognition of the reality that civilian spouses are often unemployed and sacrifice careers of their own,” lawmakers wrote. “That the housing allowance was and is intended as primarily a housing benefit is demonstrated by its tax-free nature, the differentiation based on dependency status, and the fact that service members occupying government quarters … are ineligible to receive BAH.”

            Pay special heed to the final statement….”service members occupying government quarters … are ineligible to receive BAH.”

            That’s called game, set, and match! It’s NOT EARNED! It’s a tax free allowance/handout! And volunteers ARE INELIGIBLE to get the tax free handout if they are occupying government quarters!

            I never want to read another ignorant word that these patently absurd tax free monthly handouts are supposedly “earned” in any way! They ARE NOT EARNED! PERIOD!

          • AFRet05

            From what I have seen you have very much been on the receiving end. How do you know I haven’t chimed in, Mr. Smith? Think about it. You once again have misunderstood a simple statement that you have started posting, namely service members occupying government quarters … are ineligible to receive BAH.” The statement is correct for government quarters which privatized housing isn’t. If you are assigned to “government” quarters, unless it is substandard you do not receive BAH.

            BTW Chuckles, as promised I did make the appropriate contact with my Congressional reps during their break and received a reply that they are not in favor of the amendment.

            Keep on trying, Mr. Smith as you continue to provide a great source of amusement to the masses!

          • Mike Smith

            Better re-read this again, you slow minded dullard with a vastly inflated ego based on a pile of horse manure:

            Verbatim from the Senate report:

            “The move stems from senators’ belief that the BAH has grown bloated and ripe for abuse. In report language connected to the authorization bill, they argued the benefit today “far exceeds the actual cost of housing borne by some service members” and needs to be brought under control.

            “BAH, and the iterations of the benefit that came before, was intended to provide a housing benefit for service members in recognition of the transient nature of military service, and in further recognition of the reality that civilian spouses are often unemployed and sacrifice careers of their own,” lawmakers wrote. “That the housing allowance was and is intended as primarily a housing benefit is demonstrated by its tax-free nature, the differentiation based on dependency status, and the fact that service members occupying government quarters … are ineligible to receive BAH.”

            Pay special heed to the final statement….”service members occupying government quarters … are ineligible to receive BAH.”

            That’s called game, set, and match! It’s NOT EARNED! It’s a tax free allowance/handout! And volunteers ARE INELIGIBLE to get the tax free handout if they are occupying government quarters!

            I never want to read another ignorant word that these patently absurd tax free monthly handouts are supposedly “earned” in any way! They ARE NOT EARNED! PERIOD!

          • Mike Smith

            Only in your pin head! And btw, you are most certainly NOT an engineer. Software engineering programs are NOT even in the Schools of Engineering Programs at real universities. And REAL engineers scoff at you soft handed sissies even attempting to characterize yourselves as among REAL engineers.

            You are nothing more than a life-long, derrier kissing org lackey and sycophant to your perceived and actual org superiors. You are truly a dime-a-dozen.

          • AFRet05

            Poor Mr. Smith; his replies keep getting deleted before anyone can respond. Oh well, no big loss.

            BTW, if you are watching you will find ABET has a list of 22 engineering disciplines and software engineering is one of them. You lose once again!

          • Mike Smith

            I see your reading comprehension skills are still abysmal. I said that there is not a single competitive university in the nation that has a school (or college) of engineering that has a department called “software engineering.” Try proving me wrong, you pasty-faced, soft handed wus whose entire work life has been based on acting as an org lackey and derrier kisser.

          • AFRet05

            Since your original post is already gone, Mr. Smith, I’ll reply here:

            Hmm, the very first one I pulled up (Cal Poly) has their Software
            Engineering major under the School of Engineering. Care to try again?

          • Mike Smith

            Name one major univ or flagship univ.

          • VegasSmitty

            Stop making mikie look so stupid, he does it enough on his own.

          • Mike Smith

            You are an uneducated dolt as a result of your own laziness and sloth.

          • Mike Smith

            As I said yesterday, let’s see one from a major university. Cal Poly, although a good school, is not a major, much less a flagship university.

          • AFRet05

            Hmm, care to be proven wrong again, Mr. Smith? Of the top 10 engineering schools (as ranked by US News and World Report) all but 2 have the computer science department in the college of engineering. The two exceptions are universities that already had strong computer programs and left them separate. Most of the Univ of Texas schools have a software engineering degree (undergrad and grad ) as does UI-UC, UC Irvine, etc.

            Why do you contunually insist on embarrassing yourself like this, Mr. Smith? It is rather amusing to watch!

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            And the VFW guys do so get a great laugh whenever he is the ‘news’ of the day.

          • Mike Smith

            Cry all you want, but the party that should never have been permitted to start, and the near $21 billion per year BAH tax free gravy train off the backs of the U.S. taxpayers will soon come to a screeching halt. It’s about time.

            This is taken verbatim right off Congressional report language that is currently being considered by the Senate:

            “The move stems from senators’ belief that the BAH has grown bloated and ripe for abuse. In report language connected to the authorization bill, they argued the benefit today “far exceeds the actual cost of housing borne by some service members” and needs to be brought under control.

            “BAH, and the iterations of the benefit that came before, was intended to provide a housing benefit for service members in recognition of the transient nature of military service, and in further recognition of the reality that civilian spouses are often unemployed and sacrifice careers of their own,” lawmakers wrote. “That the housing allowance was and is intended as primarily a housing benefit is demonstrated by its tax-free nature, the differentiation based on dependency status, and the fact that service members occupying government quarters … are ineligible to receive BAH.”

            Pay special heed to the final statement….”service members occupying government quarters … are ineligible to receive BAH.”

            That’s called game, set, and match! It’s NOT EARNED! It’s a tax free allowance/handout! And volunteers ARE INELIGIBLE to get the tax free handout if they are occupying government quarters!

            I never want to read another ignorant word that these patently absurd tax free monthly handouts are supposedly “earned” in any way! They ARE NOT EARNED! PERIOD!

          • AFRet05

            Yet you still can’t cute the verbiage of the amendment in question, but only the summary. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

          • Mike Smith

            You are the ultimate coward. You were bullied as a kid. No doubt about it.

          • AFRet05

            Not at all, Mr. Smith. Sorry you are still wrong as usual!

          • Mike Smith

            You have been a coward your entire pathetic existence.

          • AFRet05

            Nope, still wrong o favorite troll of mine.

          • Mike Smith

            What’s your real name, you life-long, soft-handed, pasty-faced gutless coward and org lackey?

          • AFRet05

            None of your business, Mr. Smith. I enjoy my relative anonymity online, nor do I stupidly post or request PII unlike you.

          • Mike Smith

            And yet another manifestation of your inate, life-long cowardice.

          • AFRet05

            Nope, not all all Mr. Smith. I am not the one making an arse of themselves in various public forums for the last 8 years!

          • Mike Smith

            The hell you say. And Cry all you want, but the party that should never have been permitted to start, and the near $21 billion per year BAH tax free gravy train off the backs of the U.S. taxpayers will soon come to a screeching halt. It’s about time.

            This is taken verbatim right off Congressional report language that is currently being considered by the Senate:

            “The move stems from senators’ belief that the BAH has grown bloated and ripe for abuse. In report language connected to the authorization bill, they argued the benefit today “far exceeds the actual cost of housing borne by some service members” and needs to be brought under control.

            “BAH, and the iterations of the benefit that came before, was intended to provide a housing benefit for service members in recognition of the transient nature of military service, and in further recognition of the reality that civilian spouses are often unemployed and sacrifice careers of their own,” lawmakers wrote. “That the housing allowance was and is intended as primarily a housing benefit is demonstrated by its tax-free nature, the differentiation based on dependency status, and the fact that service members occupying government quarters … are ineligible to receive BAH.”

            Pay special heed to the final statement….”service members occupying government quarters … are ineligible to receive BAH.”

            That’s called game, set, and match! It’s NOT EARNED! It’s a tax free allowance/handout! And volunteers ARE INELIGIBLE to get the tax free handout if they are occupying government quarters!

            I never want to read another ignorant word that these patently absurd tax free monthly handouts are supposedly “earned” in any way! They ARE NOT EARNED! PERIOD!

          • AFRet05

            Still more blah, blah, blah, copy-and-paste replies (and still off topic) when you don’t have anything, Mr. Smith. It is funny you can seem to cite the summary text but not the language of the amendment or the official budget data. Yet another failure on your part to add to the long list of failures.

          • JG4

            he gets deleted as fast as he posts….

          • Mike Smith

            Again, you frightened little rat, you exposed your bought and paid for role many years ago. And every one of your copy/paste posts only prove to confirm that you are PAID to peruse the web TRYING to beat back anything said that is averse to the interests of your employer, an speck of an org within the military industrial complex. You are simply too stupid to remember, and too cowardly to admit it (again).

          • AFRet05

            The only thing you’ve exposed is your ignorance, Mr. Smith, nothing more. You like to keep bringing up your little personal conspiracy theory when you have nothing else and you’ve been proven wrong. Sorry but you lose yet again!

          • JG4

            Groundhog Day….

          • AFRet05

            Oh my, did you happen to catch the news about the FY17 NDAA (the McCain admendent)? It didn’t have enough votes to move forward. Mr. Smith is not going to be happy (too bad)!

          • Mike Smith

            You are a lying coward.

          • AFRet05

            I am neither, Mr. Smith. Get over it.

          • Mike Smith

            You are both a liar and a coward. Own it!

          • AFRet05

            Wow a reply that wasn’t copy-and-paste! I guess you are capable of a small, original thought afterall, Mr. Smith. As I said before I am neither. Have a good eveing, Mr. Smith. Don’t walk too far out your front door. That drop is a bit steep.

          • Mike Smith

            Ok, you gutless coward. So what EXACTLY was that last sentence supposed to mean? I’ll bet that your sickening cowardice will prevent you from even owning up to your own words. You are truly a spineless, gutless, slinking coward.

          • AFRet05

            You are the one with 2 English degrees, Mr. Smith. What do you think it means? As for your accusations they are still wrong as usual. Nice try though, but still wrong after all these years.

          • Mike Smith

            You are a coward’s coward.

          • AFRet05

            I am not the one hurling insults, Mr. Smith. You are at this a bit early today. You must have nothing better to do in retirement if this is your sole reason for getting up in the mornings. Pretty lame by any standard.

          • JG4

            3 mins and he’s tagged… mods are on the top of their game!

          • Mike Smith

            I can only laugh at you thinking for one second that you are even remotely positioned to judge me. Your asinine and feeble attempts only further demonstrate how utterly stupid and clueless you are.

            And since you brought it up. The LAME one is not only you, but that pathetic job you were handed. Sitting on your fat axx all day surfing the Internet. Talk about LAME! It’s beyond me how you can even get up in the AM and go to your supposed pathetic and LAME job….. And I MEAN IT! But again, with your meager background as a mere enlisted Air/chair Force mil lifer loser who sat on your axx behind a series of desks in that 5th rate org, your options post retirement were very, very limited. And they remain extremely limited.

          • AFRet05

            Oh Mr. Smith, my little troll, how wrong you are yet again! My job does not consist of surfing the Internet all day. We have been over this many times, haven’t we. As for my post retirement career you would be very surprised. As I have told you many times I work for a major university. They came to me–I never sought out or applied for the position. It pays more than you ever made as well! So much for your assertion. Wrong as usual, Mr. Smith.

          • Mike Smith

            Lies on top of lies on top of lies. You “work” for an insignificant tick in the MIC. And you are paid with US taxpayer funds, indirectly, to surf the Internet all day long every supposed “work” day… If THAT is not LAME, what on God’s good Earth is lame? But again, your entire “career” has been and remains LAME, insignificant, and extremely limited. What a consummate LOSER!

          • AFRet05

            Nope, still wrong on all accounts Mr. Smith, and you always will be in that regard.You might want to reexamination your own career if you are looking for an example of lame. If you would have tried harder (differ degree choices, etc) maybe things would have been different. All that bitterness is going to eat you alive! Lame is also continually posting your spam like rants all over various Internet sites and expecting to get a sympathetic reader. Lame is job hopping your first 8 years and then blaming the organization for not getting ahead (you know that “voluntary grade reduction).

            Sorry, but you can’t seem to accept he facts, Mr. Smith. That makes you the loser here, not me.

          • Mike Smith

            Ahahahahaha
            Oh….. Ahahahahaha
            Oh, oh, oh… Ahahahahaha

            In 1999, after a very REAL job competition, I was offered and I accepted an appointment and promotion and transfer to the IRS from the VA to a GS-14 Section Chief position within the CFO’s Office of the IRS.

            And less than 3 years later I was offered a promotion to a GS-15 position as The National Financial Manager of the Appeals Division of the IRS by the then CFO of the IRS, Mr. Todd Grams. And that GS-15 position was a fast-track to the SES within the IRS or another agency within Treasury,

            Where were YOU in your career in 1999 and 2002, respectively? You, as a dime a dozen HS educated, Air/Chair Force pseudo desk clerk mil lifer loser afraid to pull off the binky, were far, far beneath me then, now, and forever.

          • AFRet05

            Already answered long ago, Mr. Smith. You should have paid closer attention as my responsibilities at that time had a greater span of control and impact. You still lose. BTW I noticed in of your recent “I love me” posts is that you technically took a downgrade twice during your federal career. I never did!

          • Mike Smith

            More fictional nonsense. You were, you are, and you shall FOREVER remain vastly INFERIOR to me in any metric that you stupidly jealous, insecure, numb skull can possibly perceive. Another word need not be penned. Oh yea, besides being lame and having a laughably lame job, you are also ugly. And your breath reeks of rotting fish and teeth!

          • AFRet05

            Yet again out comes the personal insults and attacks when you have nothing, Mr. Smith. Way to revert to the mentality and behavior of a kindergartner! You have reached a new milestone.

          • Mike Smith

            As an alumnus of the hyper competitive and prestigious Presidential Management Fellowship Program, and as a prior Senior Administrative Officer at the world renowned National Instutures of Health, and as a prior Supervisory Admin Officer at the Va/Biomed Research, and as a prior Executive Director of a multimillion dollar Biomed research foundation, and as a prior Sectipn Chief in the IRS’s CFO Office, and as a prior Skilled Tradesman and Journeyman Pipefitter in the U.S. Shipbuilding and Shipyard Industry in Southern California for 12 + years, including tenures in BOTH the public and private sector in these heavy industrial workplaces, I can and will state with complete authority that you were, are, and shall forever remain my INFERIOR by far in any metric that your lame self can possibly conjure!

          • AFRet05

            There it is, the infamous “I love me” post including the prominent mentioning of PMFP. You know that 2 year paid training program that no one fails, where they have to hire you and in the end didn’t produce the desired results with you and “leadership” positions. The same program that, by their own admission, was failing to produce the intended results and had to be changed. I am still not, nor ever will be impressed by your “Peter Principle” resume, Mr. Smith. That is a fact!

          • Mike Smith

            Keep dreaming, you uneducated pinhead. You know NOTHING about the PMFP. It, like Stanford or Yale, or any other selective institution or organization, would not and will NEVER give you the time of day. Your mindless and stupid jealousy is not only laughable, it is pathetic. You are truly one LAME horse’s derrier!

          • AFRet05

            Not jealous whatsoever, Mr. Smith. Trying to equate the PMFP “training” in the same light as Yale or Stanford is absolutely hilarious!!! It was and still is a 2 year training program, nothing more. It failed to produce the results in your case. You own that failure in its entirety.

          • Mike Smith

            Allow me to enlighten you, you stupidly jealous dolt. When I was accepted into the PMFP after its extremely rigorous selection process less than 1 in 10 who were nominated to compete in it by their respective graduate and law and PhD schools were ultimately selected as PMFs. That level of selectively is similar to Stanford and Yale, you stupidly jealous loser!

          • AFRet05

            That doesn’t change the fact it was and still is a 2 year training program and there was a quota. Not impressed!

          • Mike Smith

            More ignorant rantings based on mindless jealousy and insecurity.

          • AFRet05

            Still wrong on all accounts, Mr. Smith.

          • Mike Smith

            Using your asinine and transparently insecurity-laden “logic,” a HYPER COMPETITIVE (but what would you know about hyper competitive selection processes) neurosurgeon residency TRAINING program at Sloan Kettering or a Radiologic Oncology residency TRAINING program at the Mayo Clinic are “just training” programs after all…… How utterly STUPID can you get? You are a drooling MORON!

          • AFRet05

            Oh Mr. Smith, you are still wrong on all accounts. I just keep laughing at you trying to equate PMFP admission to other things that they are not! Keep it up, Chuckles. We are having a great laugh at your expense!!

          • Mike Smith

            The only one genuinely laughing, you moronic coward, is me.

          • AFRet05

            Oh if you could see me now, just LMFAO at you and your antics today (and most every day for that matter)! Have a good day, Mr. Smith. I have to get back to building kitchen cabinets (this week’s”to do” item while I’m off work). Only 3 more to go!

          • Mike Smith

            I can just imagine what crap that a soft-handed wus like you would “build.” Besides my many years as a REAL skilled tradesmanon, the tip of my little finger on my left hand has more skill and mechanical aptitude that you have in your entire pathetic being.

          • AFRet05

            Yes, I’m building, not “assembling” them. I have my shop set up with all the tools necessary (and then some). Actually, Mr. Smith, I have many skills you don’t realize and woodworking is one of them. I’ve had many skilled craftsman (plumbers, tile, painters, electrical, flooring, etc.) comment on how great the results were. I’ve also built some of my own furniture over the years.

            Sorry, you still are wrong! My hands are far from soft and I tested rather high on mechanical aptitude years ago.

          • Mike Smith

            Look, little man, you’d NEVER even gain an interview in ANY skilled trades. NOT ONE! And you’d NEVER last a single shift in a shipyard or any other heavy industrial workplace. You’ve been and shall remain a soft-handed wus/air conditioned office denizen your entire pathetic life. And you relied on derrier kissing to keep and advance in your lame mil lifer jobs and thereafter your entire pathetic life. I’ve like to see the clueless on your face if I threw a pipefitters or an electrician’s blueprint in from of you. You’d pee your pants! Ahahahahaha

          • AFRet05

            Really, which blueprint: electrical, HVAC, plumbing, fire suppression system, mechanical? Which perspective: front elevation side, top or ISO? What about the framing diagrams? You would be surprised at what I know and have working experience with, Mr. Smith. I would LOVE to see you face when presented with a network connectivity diagram, state transition diagram, data flow diagram, object interaction diagram, interface diagram, or a functional decomposition of a system into their respective software and hardware components. I think you would be in the corner twitching! It is rather amusing you keep bringing up your skilled trades past but that is the very work you ran away from (trying to advance with 2 degrees in English which obviously didn’t work or take given your fine command of the English language)!

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            Clearing clogged naval sewer lines is “skilled trades?”

          • AFRet05

            Like Mike Rowe says, “somebody has got to do it!”

          • JG4

            but to relish the job??

          • Mike Smith

            See the post above, you pansie!

          • AFRet05

            So Mr. Smith, I am assuming by now you have seen the news about the McCain amendment to the FY17 NDAA did not go forward (not enough votes). His amendment had the BAH changes in it. So much for your impact (again). I found something for you in your moment of loss:

            HERB’S CROW HASH
            4 or 5 crows
            1 (10 3/4 oz.) can chicken broth
            1/4 c. butter
            Salt & Pepper to taste
            Juice from 1/2 lemon
            8-12 oz. sliced mushrooms
            Flour
            1 bay leaf
            Rice or toast
            THE MARINADE:
            1 pt. vinegar
            1 pt. water
            3 cloves garlic, crushed
            1 tsp. salt
            1/2 tsp. black pepper
            Skin the crows. Cut away any fat. Cut bird in half. Mix marinade. Pour over crow in glass container for 24 hours in refrigerator. Discard marinade. Boil crow in a pot with water, 1 bay leaf. Remove meat from bone, slicing it against the grain. In a large fry pan heat butter, mushrooms and add chicken broth, lemon juice, salt and pepper to taste. Simmer for 20 minutes. Thicken with flour. Serve over rice or toast. Serves 4.

            Enjoy!

          • Mike Smith

            It’s not over by a long shot. I spent plenty of time on Capital Hill as a Presidential Management Fellow. And I personally lobbied Senate and House members in the later 90s as an Executive Director of a multimillion dollar biomedical research foundation. Unlike you, I actually know and have personally experienced how DC works. You, on the other hand, as a life-long office-based pseudo pencil pushing mil lifer loser, are functionally illiterate on the subject.

          • AFRet05

            Yes, that “Executive Director” position that when asked, the organization doesn’t acknowledge you were ever in that position (according to 2 of the recent directors).

            So, how does that crow taste again, Mr. Smith? Did you bother to read the White House admin statement on their veto position of the amendment (section 604 in particular)? I guess not as you can’t seem to find authoritative sources via Google.

          • Mike Smith

            Utter nonsense. I TOLD you multiple times to file FOIA requests to the Florida State office that regulates Florida non profits for info during my tenure from circa 97-99. My name and signature is all over clinical trial agreements, payroll records, including pay checks, deposits made to the Florida Unemployment Insuramce Agency, payments made to the Univ of Florida Brain Cancer Reseach Center, as well as a multitude of other official filings!

            But your COWARDICE prevents you, you worthless POS!

          • AFRet05

            I have no need to file a FOIA request, Mr. Smith as my information came from the director herself about 2 years ago. When asked she stated your name is NOT listed as one of the Executive Directors going back to its founding. I prvoided your alleged timeline and she told me someone else was the Executive Director at that time (a female pharmacist). She said she never heard or came across your name. Why don’t you give them a call to confirm if you think I am lying.

          • Mike Smith

            My tenure was just as I said, you stupidly jealous moron!

          • AFRet05

            Not jealous at all, Mr. Smith. I am just stating your prior employer denied you were ever in that position.

          • Mike Smith

            That assertion does not make any difference. I’ve told you what to do. Your cowardice and stupid jealousy prevents you.

          • AFRet05

            That’s funny as 2 different Executive Directors both stated the same thing. Notice a pattern here, Mr. Smith?

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            And my conversations with those actual Executive Directors confirms their statements to you: Mikey merely lied, is lying, and will probably always lie about that non-existent ‘SES equivalent” position he most certainly did not fill,

          • Mike Smith

            Utter nonsense. I TOLD you multiple times to file FOIA requests to the Florida State office that regulates Florida non profits for info during my tenure from circa 97-99. My name and signature is all over clinical trial agreements, payroll records, including pay checks, deposits made to the Florida Unemployment Insuramce Agency, payments made to the Univ of Florida Brain Cancer Reseach Center, as well as a multitude of other official filings!

            But your COWARDICE prevents you! And I’m STILL calling your bluff, you lying snake!

            And YES, AS A MATTER OF OBJECTIVE FACT my annualized salary in 1997/1998 as the then Executive Director of the North Florida Foundation for Research and Education, Inc., was well over $110,000 PER ANNUM!

            And that figure was well within the salary range at that time for members of the Senior Executive Service!
            And no amount of crying, lying or spewing more of your noxious vomit across the screen will alter any of these objective historical facts, you stupid braying JACKAXX!!

          • Mike Smith

            I told you what to do. Your cowardice and mindless jealousy prevents you, as always. You are a LAME excuse for a human rat.

          • AFRet05

            I already did my “homework” on this, Mr. Smith. The burden of proof is on you!

          • Mike Smith

            Go fuck yourself, you cowardly POS!!

          • AFRet05

            Such language this early on a Sunday morning, Mr. Smith, and so close to your birthday as well.

          • Mike Smith

            I TOLD you multiple times to file FOIA requests to the Florida State office that regulates Florida non profits for info during my tenure from circa 97-99. My name and signature is all over clinical trial agreements, payroll records, including pay checks, deposits made to the Florida Unemployment Insuramce Agency, payments made to the Univ of Florida Brain Cancer Reseach Center, as well as a multitude of other official filings!

            But your COWARDICE prevents you, you worthless POS!

          • JG4

            awww isn’t he erudite…..

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            Must be that second ‘degree’ in ‘palin ‘merican.’

          • Mike Smith

            I see you are STILL trying to use obscure words to deflect from the fact that you are a HS diploma holding loser as a result of your life-long sloth and laziness to even take a single class at an open enrollment community college.

            And even worse, your meager rise at the 5th rate Post Office was based not on genuine meritocracy and making substantive efforts to stand out among your fellow HS “educated” peers. Rather it was based on many years functioning as an org toady and derrier kisser to anyone and everyone who you perceived was your superior in that miserable, hyper inbred, 5th rate Post Office.

          • JG4

            awww there’s Mr.pmfp that never made it to SES…. was wondering when the diatribe was coming… don’t you have some work to do in the alleys? when your nose starts running you’re full and can go home for the night…. toddle off now or was that waddle

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            He did not even make it to a GS 15! Now that failure – write BIG!

          • JG4

            and BOOM bye bye troll… that was easy

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            And it’s mikey the maggot – you remember it? The one with the inability to keep anything UP for long enough to get laughed at when it lies over & over? But at least it has never reproduced………..

          • Mike Smith

            You are a drooling moron.

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            2 ‘degrees’ in ‘english’ [purchased online] and a single semester of ‘law’ would indicate that you are the drooling moron, SPAM boy.

            That and the lack of a verifiable fact from you in almost 8 years under any of those 107 different DISQUS posting IDs, the FEMALE facebook account, and the multiple ‘make” {now that is funny!] ones.

          • Mike Smith

            Try responding to my challenge, you toothless, gutless, SNIVILING coward!

          • Mike Smith

            Utter nonsense. I TOLD you multiple times to file FOIA requests to the Florida State office that regulates Florida non profits for info during my tenure from circa 97-99. My name and signature is all over clinical trial agreements, payroll records, including pay checks, deposits made to the Florida Unemployment Insuramce Agency, payments made to the Univ of Florida Brain Cancer Reseach Center, as well as a multitude of other official filings!

            But your COWARDICE prevents you, you worthless POS!

          • Mike Smith

            Utter nonsense. I TOLD you multiple times to file FOIA requests to the Florida State office that regulates Florida non profits for info during my tenure from circa 97-99. My name and signature is all over clinical trial agreements, payroll records, including pay checks, deposits made to the Florida Unemployment Insuramce Agency, payments made to the Univ of Florida Brain Cancer Reseach Center, as well as a multitude of other official filings!

            But your COWARDICE prevents you, you worthless, jealous, POS!

          • Mike Smith

            You soft-handed, pasty-faced, life-long pseudo desk clerk wusses have not a clue about the skilled trades. You pansies would have never lasted a single shift in any heavy industrial workplace. And by the way, in addition to being a certified high pressure pipe welder during my navy years, I also led the ship’s at sea “flying” squad. It functioned as the ship’s first responder to shipboard fires, floods, medical emergencies, etc. But again, as a life-long soft-handed wus who functioned as an org lackey in office settings these are matters far outside your zone of comfort.

            s/
            Michael J. Smith, MPA

            Honorably Discharged (one enlistment was enough) Veteran

            Prior 12+year Journeyman Pipefitter in the U.S. Shipyard and Shipbuilding Industry in Southern California

            Alumnus, Presidential Management Fellowship Program, Class of 1993 @ the highly selective and world renowned National Institutes of Health

            Prior Senior Administrative Officer at the NIH

            Prior Supervisory Administrative Officer at the Dept of Veterans Affairs, Biomedical Research

            Prior Executive Directior of a Major Regional Multimillion Dollar Biomedical Research Foundation

            Prior Section Chief in the IRS’s CFO Office

            Prior Business Manager at a Naval Medical Center

            Accepted into several and attended a selective ABA accredited graduate law school

            Accepted into a very competitive and highly selective doctorate program at the University of Southern California

            In other words, as an uneducated, life-long office support functionary pencil-pushing mil lifer consummate loser, you were, you are, and you shall forever remain objectively inferior to me in any metric that your pin head can possibly conjure.

          • Mike Smith

            You soft-handed, pasty-faced, life-long pseudo desk clerk wusses have not a clue about the skilled trades. You pansies would have never lasted a single shift in any heavy industrial workplace.

            And by the way, in addition to being a certified high pressure pipe welder during my navy years, I also led the ship’s at sea “flying” squad. It functioned as the ship’s first responder to shipboard fires, floods, medical emergencies, etc. But again, as a life-long soft-handed wus who functioned as an org lackey in office settings these are matters far outside your zone of comfort.

            /s/
            Michael J. Smith, MPA

            Honorably Discharged (one enlistment was enough) Veteran

            Prior 12+year Journeyman Pipefitter in the U.S. Shipyard and Shipbuilding Industry in Southern California

            Alumnus, Presidential Management Fellowship Program, Class of 1993 @ the highly selective and world renowned National Institutes of Health

            Prior Senior Administrative Officer at the NIH

            Prior Supervisory Administrative Officer at the Dept of Veterans Affairs, Biomedical Research

            Prior Executive Directior of a Major Regional Multimillion Dollar Biomedical Research Foundation

            Prior Section Chief in the IRS’s CFO Office

            Prior Business Manager at a Naval Medical Center

            Accepted into several and attended a selective ABA accredited graduate law school

            Accepted into a very competitive and highly selective doctorate program at the University of Southern California

            In other words, as an uneducated, life-long office support functionary pencil-pushing mil lifer consummate loser, you were, you are, and you shall forever remain objectively inferior to me in any metric that your pin head can possibly conjure.

          • Mike Smith

            You JACKASS! I’m not eying to compare, much less equate myself to computer geeks. In fact, I have no interest in computer geekness. None whatsoever.

            But YOU, YOU pathetically try to equate your clumsy handing of household hand tools with the years and years of skilled trades experience of skilled tradesmen. And I called you out on that laughable assertion!

            Again, you soft-handed, thin skinned, life-long office denizen, you WOULD NEVER EVER even be interviewed in ANY skilled trades discipline!

            Moreover, a candy derrier, career-long org lackey of your ilk who has known NOTHING other than DOD air conditioned offices since your teenage years, you’d NEVER last a single shift on the shipyards or any other heavy industrial workplace. You were, you are, and you shall forever remain a pasty-faced, soft-handed, unskilled office denizen wus!

          • AFRet05

            So you admit you couldn’t do my job! Why thank you for the acknowledgement, Mr. Smith! Regarding the “hand tools” try about $1500 in power tools in addition to the various hand tools.

            By your logic, if you work out of an “air conditioned office” then you are unskilled. By that same logic, since the majority of your federal career you sat in an “air conditioned office” behind a desk, you are therefore completely unskilled! You took that job to run away from those same shipyards, Mr. Smith. Admit it because you did it and own that very fact. Ironically, after the Navy, you didn’t have any marketable skills other than what the Navy taught you so you took the only job available to you: shipyard work. I had multiple options besides what I was trained to do in the AF. It was just I enjoyed computers a bit more than everything else and saw a good future in the work. That is how I ended up working for the university.

          • JG4

            actually there are a bunch of us that are amused at it’s antics

          • JG4

            wow now he compares himself to a neurosurgeon… there’s a quantum leap

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            Into a universe far, far away.

          • Mike Smith

            I slammed you with your asinine use of the phrase “training program.” You are just too stupid to understand my earlier slam of your asinine misuse of words.

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            Mikey the maggot: a ‘paid 2 year training program’ remains a “paid 2 year training program” no matter how much a ‘grad’ of that “paid 2 year training program’ whines after failing to succeed in that field.

            And ‘retiring’ as a mere GS 13 certainly underscores YOUR failure.

          • Mike Smith

            I’m retired with a > six figure CSRS/TSP annual annuity with COLAs and another > six figure income from multiple rental properties. Eat your miserable heart out, you obsessed freak!

          • Mike Smith

            In 1999, after a very REAL job competition, I was offered and I accepted an appointment and promotion and transfer to the IRS from the VA to a GS-14 Section Chief position within the CFO’s Office of the IRS.

            And less than 3 years later I was offered a promotion to a GS-15 position as The National Financial Manager of the Appeals Division of the IRS by the then CFO of the IRS, Mr. Todd Grams. And that GS-15 position was a fast-track to the SES within the IRS or another agency within Treasury,

            Where were YOU in your career in 1999 and 2002, respectively? You, as a dime a dozen HS educated, Air/Chair Force pseudo desk clerk mil lifer loser afraid to pull off the binky, were far, far beneath me then, now, and forever.

          • Mike Smith

            My post was above your pin head, you gutless coward.

          • JG4

            stupid erudite but you won’t get the reference

          • Mike Smith

            HS diploma holding consulate loser, and of course coward.

          • JG4

            come on bark like a dog

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            I’m taking bets he’ll sound just like a yappy chihuahua!

          • Mike Smith

            Consider this post as me spitting into your pasty face, you gutless coward.

          • JG4

            you must like role play… get on your knees and bark like a dog

          • Mike Smith

            And you are STILL cowardly hiding behind your firearms. The sign of a genuine coward.

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            Palin ‘merican – told you!

          • Mike Smith

            You are stupidly jealous loser.

          • JG4

            isn’t that the fast track to SES and he didn’t make it?

            (que the unworthy hs unfit to like or lick my boots load up the purported resume meaningless diatribe)

          • Mike Smith

            Try coherently defending the absurd $4,083 tax free monthly surmised “housing” handout for two married teenaged HS educated E-3 entry-level desk clerks with a kid stationed on a base in San Diego.

            That’s right, a patently absurd $4,083 TAX FREE each month via these preposterously surmised “housing” handouts that require no proof whatsoever that they are being used for “housing” in the first place.

            That ludicrous amount can support a $700,000+ principle balance mortgage FOR TWO MARRIED TEENAGERS at today’s mortgage rates!

            Yes, let’s see your coherent defense of this plain-faced ridiculous tax free amount. And when you do, also keep in mind and reference the fact that these patently absurd tax free monthly handouts require no proof of any kind to show that these tax free windfalls are actually being used for off base “housing” needs or expenses in the first place!

            And as a direct result of this utter lack of management control and fiscal responsibility, most volunteers gain much lower cost housing (e.g., most singles opt to roommate) so they can divert, although currently legally, hundreds and even many thousands tax free into their pockets each month and/or divert them into luxury auto purchases and other items of excess so they can live vastly premature affluent lifestyles off the backs of the U.S. taxpayers!

          • AFRet05

            Oh, was that a deflection since you lost again, Mr. Smith? I think so since it was yet another copy-and-paste reply. Just give it up and stop embarrassing yourself further, Mr. Smith.

          • Mike Smith

            Still afraid to accept the challenge, I see. Why are you so afraid?

          • AFRet05

            Not afraid whatsoever, Mr. Smith. That “challenge” was answered long ago but since the answer didn’t fit your personal agenda you chose to ignore it. What about my two, long standing challenge, Mr. Smith? You’ve continually failed to answer them. I don’t think you can!

          • Mike Smith

            Try coherently defending the absurd $4,083 tax free monthly surmised “housing” handout for two married teenaged HS educated E-3 entry-level desk clerks with a kid stationed on a base in San Diego.

            That’s right, a patently absurd $4,083 TAX FREE each month via these preposterously surmised “housing” handouts that require no proof whatsoever that they are being used for “housing” in the first place.

            That ludicrous amount can support a $700,000+ principle balance mortgage FOR TWO MARRIED TEENAGERS at today’s mortgage rates!

            Yes, let’s see your coherent defense of this plain-faced ridiculous tax free amount. And when you do, also keep in mind and reference the fact that these patently absurd tax free monthly handouts require no proof of any kind to show that these tax free windfalls are actually being used for off base “housing” needs or expenses in the first place!

            And as a direct result of this utter lack of management control and fiscal responsibility, most volunteers gain much lower cost housing (e.g., most singles opt to roommate) so they can divert, although currently legally, hundreds and even many thousands tax free into their pockets each month and/or divert them into luxury auto purchases and other items of excess so they can live vastly premature affluent lifestyles off the backs of the U.S. taxpayers!

          • AFRet05

            Blah, blah, blah. You’ve got nothing as you always resort to your copy-and-paste replies, Mr. Smith.

          • Mike Smith

            Try putting on your BIG BOY pants, you soft-handed, pasty/faced, life-long derrier kissing org lackey, and TRY to coherently respond to my challenge!

            You are truly one gutless coward!

          • AFRet05

            You first as my challenge has been outstanding much longer than yours! Change out of your ruffle bottom panties and man up for once in your life, Mr. Smith. I think you are incapable of doing so and instead prefer the spamming, troll tactics you have engaged in for almost 8 years!

          • Mike Smith

            You are a coward and a parasite.

          • 98C3LCMT9Y4

            It is amusing to see someone with zero creds in a STEM field presume to “know” anything about any field of ‘engineering.’

          • AFRet05

            Or his ‘extensive background in financial management” yet he can’t answer basic financial questions on BAH.

          • JG4

            just wondering if he realizes how much an MCSE makes…. I do know a few….=)

          • Mike Smith

            I cannot help but laugh at this John Gow (JG4th) poster. He’s a dime a dozen HS educated retired Post Office worker. He also fancies himself as an (albeit uneducated and unlicensed) clinical psychologist. It’s quite pathetic.

            Now you uneducated dolt, peddle your ignorant nonsense to the CFO of the IRS who offered to me the position as The National Financial Manager of the IRS’s Appeals Division, a GS-15 position, in early 2002. And if I had stayed with the IRS and not taken a voluntary demotion with the 5th rate DOD in early 2002 solely so I could return to So Cal for personal reasons, I would have earned an SES appointment years ago!

            From a WG-10 to a GS-9 Presidential Management Fellow in 1993 to a GS-14 with the IRS in 1999 to an offer to a GS-15 and a fast track to the SES in 2002, is the DEFINITION OF SUCCESS.

          • Mike Smith

            You know nothing about the federal budget process or about federal budgeting or federal financial management!

            I have nearly two decades of extensive professional and managerial level experience in federal financial management over FOUR federal agencies, including DOD, the NIH, the VA, and the IRS. I hold a Master’s Degree in Public Administration. I am an an alumnus of the prestigious and hyper competitive PMFP. And I KNOW of what I pen.

            From a prior Section Chief in the IRS’s CFO Office, and an alumnus of The Presidential Management Fellowship Program

          • AFRet05

            Blah, blah, blah, copy-and-paste, copy-and-paste. That is all you truly know Mr. Smith! When you can actually answer my challenge on the DoD budget or the text of the NDAA amendment in question then we’ll talk. Until then, be gone troll!

          • Mike Smith

            Law school is 3 years, dummy. But again, since you never even sat for ANY graduate-level admittance examinations (e.g., LSAT, GRE, GMAT, etc.) you have ZERO credibility on this issue!

          • Mike Smith

            Just like YOU!

  • 98C3LCMT9Y4

    Legal, mandated when no government housing is available, and you have never been able to prove a single case of fraud nor abuse of the system, troll boy. No defense needed.

    • Mike Smith

      I’ve given you an F. Try again.